Band on the Run

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Posts by Band on the Run

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  24

  Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 05-01-2011 WT Study (LAWLESNESS)

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  do you hate lawlessness?.

  can the elders enforce any laws since they cannot read hearts?

  love one another.

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  Band on the Run

  This is so well done, as usual. May I ask how much time it takes? I'd venture a guess that it consumes days.

  I forget the stilted style of the WT until I read these threads. It seems to me how the Society condemns behavior just as associating with family members but never applies a test that an ordinary Witness can use in a given situation. The WT accounts are very sketchy. How do Witnesses know whether their case is similar to the one in the WT or possesses facts that calls for a different solution? I don't think it would be that important if their default position was not completely avoiding any contact. God doesn't want us to avoid all contact or the Bible would say so. A margin is left for human discretion. A supremely assured person will assume they were doing what is right. A less confident,meek person will assume their conduct is never good enough.

  Maybe it was my family situation. Not one of us felt we would survive Armageddon. In my case, there were hard facts that I would not. My JW aunt, however, following the WT directives to the letter. She was so meek and pure. Her heart was so good. Yet she felt no grace. There was no salvation for her. She did her JW duties fully and voluntarily but always expected painful destruction. The mind control techniques must work. The Roman Catholic Church offers confession and repentence. With the Witnesses, I always felt decades of fealty could be wiped out by a few minutes caught off guard or unaware. There has to be a psychological dimension to this factor.

  If only Blondie's comments were a supplement accompanying the WT in my youth, my mind's burden would not be so heavy. I also wonder how the brothers accepted Blondie's obvious competence. It must have been comical.
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  9

  Freddy Franz' Unrestrained Mind Control

  by Alfred in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  nowadays, the wt knows that it needs to tread gently when they execute their mind control tactics... modern jws now have iphones, facebook and better access to information in general.

  so their approach needs to be as subtle as possible.... jws in the 50s and 60s, on the other hand, had nothing but freddys ongoing barrage of guilt-inducing wt articles.

  heres a small sample of what jws were exposed to during that time.... ...we shall march forth organized theocratically, knowing organization procedures.

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  Band on the Run

  I will be candid. Maybe my being older is slanting it but there are tons of people with no computers. My budget was very strained after my illness. I only bought my computer to do legal research. Not knowing all the cool things, I had no idea what I was missing. My sister and others assured me I was missing nothing. Many people check their emails once a week, if at all. Acquiring the computer turned me into a computer fanatic. I should say internet addict.

  I live in a Mennonite area of PA. Altho their numbers are going down b.c so many Philly move up to escape the blight, they dominate the culture. I swear only six or seven last names exist for counties. Some of them still wear lace caps and very plain dress. You can tell they are serious Mennonites. Their culture is as constrained as the Witnesses. There are more mainstream versions. I frankly don't know how they view each other. I know from NY that many orthodox Jews feel secular Jews are not really Jews.

  There are exceptions but the average Witness probably has factors predestining them to succumb to the Witnesses. Nazis acquired power in the most literate country in the world. It is hard from my post war perspective but Germany was the NY of the world. If you did not study in Germany, you were delegated to a low rank in the professions. My relatives were uncomplicated, meek people. The world over many cultures are satisfied to follow as long as they have peace.

  I read WTs as I randomly happen upon them. For decades, the WT tone stayed the same. My bro and I would joke about the illustrations and writing. One day I picked it up and it was written in a slighly more modern fashion. It was cosmetic facelifting but it was apparent. The one rule the Witnesses enforce is that the only WTBTS is the only God channel. It takes a very brave or a certain temperament to poke around. I have no idea I would be a Witness if I did not attend public school and during the Cold War. Something about practicing for the A-bomb to fall on us created strong ties to WAshington and secular power. Russia and China were closed, totalitarian states. Military planes were always flying and breaking sound barriers. It scares me but it also made me feel safe. All the Cold War propaganda erased some of the family propaganda.

  I was able to walk away and my family accompanied me. Reading the heartbreak on these posts is instructive. Would I have become so utterly worldly if I had to pay a price? Somehow I feel those who leave may have very different family situations than those who choose to stay. Decades ago I called a man who was on Regis show as a JW dissenter. He was rescuing JWs and Armstrong's followers. I asked for help. He told me I had a picnic. His task was to keep people who were physically ill and suicidal from the sundering of ties.

  I was raised with much respect for Freddie and little for Knorr. Even after these decades, Freddie has a cherish place in my mind from the brainwashing. My rational mind knows he was responsible for more mayhem then Knorr.
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  38

  Will you attend the Kingdom Hall for a funeral of parents who are still JW's? If not, do you tell them beforehand?

  by ThomasCovenant in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently talking to an ex witness whose elderly parents, and in law parents, are still witnesses.. as shocking and incomprehensible as it may seem to both sets of parents, this ex witness believes that, just like every other human throughout human history, they are going to die.

  now this ex witness has expressed to me that he won't ever step foot in a kingdom hall again.. he is in a dillemma as to what to do about their funerals.

  he does not want to attend any service held at the kingdom hall as the service will be heavily controlled by the seven members of the governing body that reside in brooklyn and who don't know his parents at all.. he is quite willing to stand outside the hall, or attend the crematorium or gravesite or funeral home and also any wake that takes place afterwards as people are more free to express themselves in a less formal setting.

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  Band on the Run

  May I ask a related, historical question? I recall only one Jehovah's Witness funeral in the KH growing up. It was tragic. I saw a young black brother active in ministry at WT study and we even spoke to him as we left. A few hours earlier we received a phone call. Someone driving drunk killed him and two other brothers/sisters were in critical condtion. There was an open casket. Catholics and C of E require a closed casket in a church. His death was so violent the coffin should have been closed.

  All my family funerals (all JWs) were held at a funeral home. Bethelites came over (a very short distance) to preach. The family had a funeral home (the brother who became a Witness went out of business with his antireligion sentiments) so maybe that skewed things. All the other funerals were at funeral homes. I think I recall someone saying to the effect that it was tacky in the KH.

  Maybe it was local custom. We did not have weddings. They seemed private, too.

  Just curious.
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  22

  College

  by d in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am a college trying to maintain good grades.college is stressful especially this year.have any of you who are still in college, or went to college found it to be difficult in any way shape or form?.for me i am worried about finding a good career after i graduate.since the job market is still slow.. thanks.

  d.

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  Band on the Run

  JWs who go to college must have contradictory feelings. It always nagged me in the back of my mind that I was not doing something wholesome. It was a small part but it was there. I cannot fathom how one can be exposed to the thinking skills that develop and the concrete knowledge and remain a Witness. People do, though. On the other hand, because we may be older and other reasons, we cherish it more than other students. It was arduous work and the hurt of a student whose family is derisive must hurt. I'd notice other students being pampered, parents giving advice, students wined and dined to encourage their spirits.

  I have great admiration for someone taking positive action to improve themselves and the world. Right now I'm taking community college courses. The older the student, the better they do. In fact, most of the younger students are complete goofs since they aren't paying for it. Older students seem to cling on for dear life. Of course, so much depends on your life experience in applying the class material. Older students have a true advantage.

  Keep us posted on your job hunt. All you need is a foot in the door. Not every trait learned in the Witnesses is bad. The perseverence for college and the courage to go when you were told by authority it was bad should translate into one heck of a good employee and citizen.

  What is your major?
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  38

  Will you attend the Kingdom Hall for a funeral of parents who are still JW's? If not, do you tell them beforehand?

  by ThomasCovenant in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently talking to an ex witness whose elderly parents, and in law parents, are still witnesses.. as shocking and incomprehensible as it may seem to both sets of parents, this ex witness believes that, just like every other human throughout human history, they are going to die.

  now this ex witness has expressed to me that he won't ever step foot in a kingdom hall again.. he is in a dillemma as to what to do about their funerals.

  he does not want to attend any service held at the kingdom hall as the service will be heavily controlled by the seven members of the governing body that reside in brooklyn and who don't know his parents at all.. he is quite willing to stand outside the hall, or attend the crematorium or gravesite or funeral home and also any wake that takes place afterwards as people are more free to express themselves in a less formal setting.

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  Band on the Run

  I would but it would involve great difficulty. It is a mark of respect. I'd refuse to interact with any Witnesses. Knowing me, I probably would interact. I t needs to be limited with high boundaries -- which they will not respect. Without my parents' biological functions, I would not be here. I'd want their community to know how important they were to me.

  No one goes to any funeral to pay respects to the dead. It is respect, grieving with peope instead of alone, and a Christian rite.

  I'd brace myself. See a therapist for clues on how to cope. The day of the event, I'd take some Xanax and alcohol to blunt the trauma of the service.

  This is something that is very clear for me in the abstract. Yes, I would go. It is a heavy price to pay.

  Life s....s.
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  29

  Why was Rutherford sent to prison?

  by Alfred in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well that was 93 years ago so well probably never know all the facts.

  but the wt claims that russell and others were falsely accused of sedition.

  the may 9, 1918 new york times article that covered these arrests and sedition charges states that they were charged with spreading doctrines calculated to promote unrest and disloyalty among the men of the army and navy.

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  Band on the Run

  I was a child when Eisenhower was president. Of course, I know nothing about his presidency. JFK was so full of life and vigor! The Witnesses would be so proud that Eisenhower's mother was a Witness and, then, condemn Eisenhower for being a major reason why we weren't in concentration camps. There was hope that he would return to the fold. Was he a born-in like me? If she were a true Witness, he would not have attended West Point with her blessing.

  International Bible Students. My impression was that they were small, much fewer than Black Muslims, etc. I suppose I had the wrong impression.
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  29

  Why was Rutherford sent to prison?

  by Alfred in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well that was 93 years ago so well probably never know all the facts.

  but the wt claims that russell and others were falsely accused of sedition.

  the may 9, 1918 new york times article that covered these arrests and sedition charges states that they were charged with spreading doctrines calculated to promote unrest and disloyalty among the men of the army and navy.

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  Band on the Run

  Does anyone know if a First Amendment lawyer has reviewed these cases? I find it sad that hardly one here mentions that we have a First Amendment, guaranteeing free exercise of religion. WWI spwaned many charges of sedition. It seemed to have more Red Scare events than comparable conditions during WWII. Of course, Stalin was our ally during WWII. I assumed their lawyers screamed First Amendment. Without reading the specific charges and law review articles ( law profs had to write about it), I can only assume that they committed overt acts that reached beyond conscientious objector status.

  Were the Quakers, Mennonites, and Amish jailed for sedition? The Witnesses are just about "Germanic" with their deep reverence for authority and blind obedience. How are they different from Hitler, Mao or Stalin? I can just imagine the crimes against humanity if their "theocracY" came to pass.

  Did they do anything overtly to comfort Germany, et al.? I am certain these prosecutions would be condemned today.

  I believe Lady Lee had a profound point that their rabid antigovernment stance is politics. In many ways, it much more political than people who are committeepersons, state chairs, delegates in party politics. I believe it is important to view the times then to understand how good people can spit on the U.S. Constitution. Lincoln, of all people, destroyed the const'n. Of course, without his actions, there would be const'n to protect. The const'n is not a law. Enduring values that last for generations are envisaged. Lines will blur b/c of historical circumstance.

  It is striking that Lincoln's military actions during the Civil War occurred when we fought a war on our homeland. Chaos and dissolution of all government was a real, imminent threat. I don't see how even if Rutherford pushed for more than neutrality, Rutherford could have had an impact on the war/s. It was a message to all to behave or else. A short while later, our government herded Japanese-Americans into concentratoins camps. When the legislative and military action reached the U.S. Supreme Court for arguments (years later), the Army admitted that there no evidence of any real threat. Hoover said on the record that Japan had spies. The FBI tailed them. The Japanese-Americans were not spies. The Court upheld the legaltiy of the concentration camps in Korematsu. Ironically, the Court used sweeping language affirming civl rights before crippling the Japanese Americans. It is the most frequently cited case about race being impermissible as a classification. Dred Scott, upholding slavery, and Korematsu, upholding unnecessary detentions, are always cited as despicable cases. Germany was not on US soil.

  My father was a CO during WWII b/c he was at Bethel. An uncle by marriage went to prison. My mom's close friend was very young. Some older Bethelites stirred him up the night before his trial. Rather than sit and just respond the way his lawyer advised, he stood up like St. Paul and preached. He received 3 additional years.

  May I ask for a primary source for materials and any good secondary sources?
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  45

  Is God Responsible For Bad Things that Happen?

  by What Now? in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  [if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-us</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:dontvertaligncellwithsp /> <w:dontbreakconstrainedforcedtables /> <w:dontvertalignintxbx /> <w:word11kerningpairs /> <w:cachedcolbalance /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="&#45;-" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!

  [endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"times new roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"times new roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif].

  this is a question that i have struggled with, not just as a jehovahs witness but as a believer in god.

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  Band on the Run

  God's allowing gives me pause. I suffered agonizing facial pain for decades. Lost all. My time was spent curled up in a fetal position while I tried to distance my mind from my body. The suicide rate is 95%. It was utter catastrophe. Many people said it was God's will because I was supposed to witness how good God was by not being bummed out that I hovered near death or insanity. The fury I had.

  The Holocaust always bothered me. I read a lot of the suffering literature throughout history. Since I was Episcopalian, I volunteered at a dynamic cathedral so that I would feel safe and protected inside the church. An author who worked there pointed out that Jesus promised us bad things would happen to us if we were His followers. Jesus promised to be present with us. Thereafter, I could relate to Jesus because he faced his physical agony and I assume he was not convinced of his godhead on the cross. His body endured the unendurable. God, hanging out in Heaven, had no idea what wracked my body and mind.

  I spent years reading about suffering. Some things were helpful. Jung's Problem with Job, Job, itself, was so powerful. C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed. What I found reassuring what that they all grappled with suffering and God and no one came with a definitive answer. God created us. What lesson is he teaching us about free will? The Witnesses make no sense. Their solution is so reminiscent of other positions. They acknowledge that humanity was created by God and that we are good. If God created so flawed that He has to teach us a lesson,I submit he was one hell of a bad Creator. Human suffering is the one thing that keeps me from having decent faith in God. A puny God allows it. I refuse to accept suffering as a human condition. I may not have a rational reason for this view. It is a gut level. My humanity goes to archetypes and racial memories in my very body, not my mind. God created me with a brain that process information that is repulsed by suffering.

  Maybe acute pain is necessary. Lepers don't have pain. As someone who endured for decades and found no satisfactory answers, I say God should know better. C.S. Lewis wrote a book called The Problem of Pain. I did not know much about Lewis when I first read it. Assuming he lived in London, I wanted to immediately take a taxi to the airport to spit in his face. He was so damn glib about pain being good. La te da. My plans were scrapped when I found he was deceased. Many years later, he married and lost his wife to a horrid bout with cancer. He was moved to write A Grief Observed. His pain is so palpable. What a difference.

  The author of Job never answered the suffering question, IMO. Who created the crocodile? prose is side stepping the issue. Yes, you are God. You have the power to inflict pain and humans are puny. Why create us, then? I felt very good about being part of the human condition of being angry with God and demanding better. Let the Bethelites go into the cancer wards and truly interact with people. Visit the children's cancer wards. What lesson is God teaching them? Don't let me start about Adam. I am not Adam. First, I don't see Adam's sin and second, sin as hereditary. I've made my choices. Adam made his--and blamed Eve.
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  8

  Under “demonical control”

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  under demonical control.

  today i added a new article to my blog titled under demonical control .

  it is available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/04/under-demonical-control.html.

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  Band on the Run

  I've only been here a few months. Your work is much appreciated. I assume you are a professional historian. So many documents. So meticulous. Besides the content, your web site is so attractive. The history is very interesting to me, more so than the doctrine.
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  68

  Charles Russell's Last Days

  by lovelylil in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this link contains a play by play of russell's last days including why and how he was found dead in a toga made from sheets.

  thought some may find it interesting.. http://www.gtft.org/biblestudents/pastorrussellslastdays.html.

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  Band on the Run

  Terry,

  That is exactly what I was truing to figure out. Why Charles Taze Russell and not Joe Schmo?

  I must say Russell is not my cup of tea (one day after the Royal Wedding). Still, it is amazing, esp. considering the very stilted and dated writing style, that there he has still has significant followers. I find it amazing. My point would be that Jesus said clearly no one will know the hour, and God hours and human hours may have no correlation, yet despite all the failed calculations, many people still revise the calculations with even weirder hints from Bible books rarely read. I can see recalculating a few times. Doing it for more than 100 years seems to be a mark of insanity.

  The gospels clearly don't want us to know every detail of Jesus' life or ministry. From the temple until the start of his ministry at 30, we have no clue what he did. We don't know his close friends, clients he loved, clients that did not pay Jesus' bills, what he ate for breakfast every day, his physical appearance, his favorite scripture, his favorite rabbi, cousins. Mary and Joseph are ciphers. I assume the writers knew much of this stuff. Jesus could have clearly told us a time specific. He decided not to do so. I used to believe all this was accidental and that the gospel writers were primitives compared to today. They were sophisticated